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First homeopathic treatment with Thuja was "over dosed", what now?
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March 24, 2013
6:05 pm
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Lori
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Hi all,

I’m glad I found this forum.  I have been interested in homeopathic treatment for nearly 3 decades, and recently began a formal study.  I looked through the AHVA website to find a Classical Homeopathic Veterinarian for my 18 month old rescue pup in Vermont, and thought I was in good hands.  When she took the case (which I conveniently typed up for her), she took about a week to think about it and review it, and then prescribed Thuja 10M.  She gave me an envelope with about 50 sesame-sized pellets and instructed me to give them to my dog all at once.  Not only did I question her choice of remedy (Layla doesn’t fit the Thuja symptoms in my opinion), but it seemed an excessive number of pellets.  Since then (Feb 23), Layla has not only not improved, but some symptoms seem terribly aggravated down.  As I look through my Materia Medica (Boericke’s 9th ed), I’m curious how to go about finding an appropriate antidote and appropriate dosing.  I surely do not want to add more layers to her very confused system.

 

Any help and suggestions appreciated.

Thank you,

Lori

March 24, 2013
7:12 pm
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drofart
Curantur Clinic & Research Center, CDA, Twin City, ODISHA.
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Well, i don’t know about the choice of remedy but i am sure a conscious homeopath will never give 50 pellets of 10M , She must have given 1-2 medicated pellets with extra non medicated pellets.

 

As a first line antidote you can use raw camphor, make the puppy smell it few times a day. If nothing happens you have to use similarity of aggravated symptoms and the same potency or higher for the antidoting purpose.

“Teste found cochicum the best antidote to Thuja in his experience”

 

But I ll advice you to talk to your doctor atleast a last time and see what she has to say.

March 24, 2013
11:33 pm
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David Kempson
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Yes it does seem that this person has little understanding or training in dosage, which of course has to make you wonder about the rest of their training as well.

However, if it is a true aggravation and not a proving, then it is possible your dog’s disease could be cured. Is the aggravation more than she can bear? If not wait, see what comes of it. She has almost certainly been given too large a dose, but this does not mean the remedy was wrong.

Antidoting a curative remedy might mean you never come back to it, thus missing an important chance to heal her.

It is hard to know how to guide you here, as we have no case to look at, and cannot judge what is going on in terms of aggravation, proving, palliation, suppression, direction of cure etc. It is important to know exactly what is happening before determining the next course of action.

In the Organon, Hahnemann gives guidelines for antidoting, which is to retake the case including the new symptoms (if any) and prescribe a new medicine. Antidoting should only be done if the condition has become so much worse that the patient is unable to endure it, or it has put the patient’s health or even life in danger.

Aggravation can be severe for a variety of reasons, some of which have nothing to do with the actions of the practitioner (degree of suppression in the case, history of pathology, amount of tissue change in the patient, natural level of sensitivity to medicines) so it is not always best to assume the practitioner has done something wrong. It may be that on assessing the reaction, your vet will be more cautious in the future (hopefully) or if not, and the remedy is still beneficial, you will just need to reduce the doses yourself.

In my own opinion, 10M is far too high a potency to ever be giving straight up. It would have been better to start around 12-30c, so I wonder what was her reason for this. I rarely ever even use 10M in clinic with my human patients, even when the case very very clearly calls for that remedy.

March 28, 2013
4:24 pm
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Lori
Vermont, USA
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Thank you for helping me understand this a little better.  The aggravations are not unbearable, more an annoyance for me I think.  I will wait it out and see what happens.  Here is the list of symptoms I gave to the homeopath, who seemed to focus more on Layla’s behavioral issues (compulsive licking, excitability, etc) and she would have neglected the physical exam if I didn’t remind her.  I was very disappointed with the cursory physical exam and wish she had spent a lot more time truly examining Layla.  At any rate, here is the list, with the most severe symptoms in BOLD.  Please let me know if anything jumps out at you.

 

Layla age 16 months (rescued as 9 wk old pup) signs and complaints

Very bad reaction to first de-worming; was hospitalized and given IV fluids (6 wks)

** Seeks warm places (lies in front of heater or wood stove or in sun)

**Insatiable hunger

Nesting on bed, circles multiple times, digs at bed before settling down

Restless nature

High energy, excitable all the time

Occasional goopy [right] eye[s]

Within past month [January] strange spot on left of nose

Intermittent loose stools alternating with fossil poops
“sensitive stomach” (much better on raw diet)

Eats cat or horse poop, plastic, some indigestible substances

Drinks from water hose, bites water, gets obsessed about water from hose

Gums look black (did not have this before)

Sneezes

Some fearfulness, anxiety, Fear of Touch or Strangers, Fear on approach, Fear
      aggression
Jealousy, Neediness, Possessive behavior with toys, food
Aggressive behavior with other dogs or humans
High “prey drive,” need to chase squirrels, birds (ran into my knee, fractured tibia required surgery for meniscus)
Compulsive behaviors of any kind
“Nipping” at fingers and hands, “mouthy” behavior
Anal gland problems, scooting (occasional)
Kennel cough
Dermatitis
Mange (mostly cleared up)
Occasional vomiting of bile before next meal (once or twice a week)
Year-round shedding (excessive)
Smelly coat  (not offensive)
Can be aggressive to animals, fear aggression
Some fear of loud noises (thunder, fireworks, vacuum, lawnmower)
Fear / barks at snowmen, kids in snowsuits, people with hoods or backpacks
Obsessive licking especially humans, but also self
Sloppy eater, sloppy drinker, some drooling
Destructive behavior (tearing up bedding, blankets, eating pieces)

Rolls on back and rubs head into floor, kicks air and any nearby object

Received de-worming, 1st series of distempter, 1st rabies, bordatella

Colleen’s observations as of Feb 25 (since November 1st) [this was the person who fostered Layla when my tibia was fractured]

With my time with Layla, here are a few symptons that I’ve noticed:

– vomitting bile (mostly in the early morning, i.e. before 6 am)

– nipping and mouthy behavior

– aggresive behavior with submissive dogs, won’t leave them alone.

– loose and fossil stools

– nesting on bed and couch

– itching/biting rear back a lot, like she has flees

– very licky, especially when she is excited.

– always hungry

– gassiness

– chewing blankets when she is bored or at home alone

– tears up paper

– dry skin

– She had a runny eye for a week before that I remember telling you about.

– At night, she is more fearful of people on the street.

 

These are the most common behaviors I’ve seen repeatedly. I haven’t seen her scoot before. There was one day that we went for a walk that she barked at a little girl who looked like she wanted to come pet Layla. But she has been mostly good with kids.

 

Sorry this post is so lengthy – I appreciate your expertise.

Lori

April 1, 2013
6:49 am
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patti
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I’m no homeopath, but this dog sure looks like a calc carb to me.  So many of the same behaviors as our puppy that we treat with a 30C calc carb as needed (usually once a week or so). 

April 2, 2013
12:55 am
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Lori
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Thanks Patti – Layla fits some of the Calc Carb, but also quite a bit of Belladonna (except for the insatiable appetite).  One thing I find curious, that seems to be more pronounced since the Thuja (Feb 23), she is drawn to large, aggressive or barking dogs – she pulls on the leash and wants to go toward the seeming aggressive dogs, and yet she herself is overly aggressive to smaller or submissive dogs.  I wonder if there is a Materia Medica specifically for symptoms in pets as opposed to humans.  It’s hard to find some of her symptoms in my MM.

I’m going to take some time to let the Thuja settle in her – this pup has had a lot of assaults in her rather short life (18 months). And now that Spring is practically here (we live in Vermont), the days should be getting warmer and hopefully she won’t be huddling in front of the heat vent.  When the sun is pouring in the window, she will pick a spot that’s sunny, and will move with the sunshine.  To touch her, she is not cold, rather her skin is quite warm, but she must feel cold internally.

Lori

January 18, 2014
1:29 pm
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rosawoodsii
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I realize this topic is somewhat old, but while reading through it I saw a few things that I’d like to comment on.

It would be very helpful to know the breed of dog.  Many of the behaviors (e.g. high energy, biting at hose, high prey drive) are normal for terriers, for example, and should not be taken as symptoms for those breeds.  Other behaviors, such as rolling on the back and kicking at aire, are typical dog behaviors, and again, are not symptoms unless they’re beyond the norm.  Others are typical puppy behaviors (chewing everything).  IOW, breed characteristics as well as species characteristics should be taken into account when taking a veterinary case.

WRT vacciinations, many people make the mistake of saying “there’s no correlation” because the symptoms don’t appear immediately, but if you read the literature, you’ll find that vaccinosis does not always appear immediately.

All that said, I wonder how your pup is doing now?

 

January 19, 2014
3:51 pm
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Lori
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Thanks for your note Rosa – Layla is very much improved.  She is a 2-year old Am Staff Terrier / Boxer mix.  She has made a lot of good progress with homeopathic treatment.  Most recently she has been on Lyssin 200c, and things turned around dramatically once she had a couple doses of it.  I have a check-in with homeopath next week, and we’ll see where we go now. 

I have looked at some of the characteristics of both breeds (Terrier and Boxer) and she fits many of both.  In your opinion, would you say nesting and digging on her bed frequently and in a rather compulsive manner is typical of Terriers or Staffies?  My son seemed to think so.  She has destroyed so many beds this way, and I hate to take all of them away, but I have patched and sewn them all so often that there’s not much left of them.  Her high energy is much more  balanced, and since taking Lyssin, she has a nice spring in her step – I think that’s what my homeopath uses to gauge the treatment.  She has become more food and resource guarded though, so I know we’re not finished with her treatment. 

My vet ran a rabies titer (she has only had the one puppy rabies vax) and her value was well over 2.0 so he wrote a rabies exclusion. 

Layla is going to a Dog Evaluation today so she can be included with my trainer in the Dog Socials.  This is a group for nervous/reactive dogs to help them learn how to properly interpret other dog signals.  At first I thought it was a terrible idea, but since Layla has been attacked a couple of times, and charged at more times than I can count, I really need to expose her to appropriate dog signals in a safe and skilled manner.  I am as nervous as she is when an unknown dog approaches, especially dogs that are off-leash and don’t respond to their owners commands.  I think she was becoming a magnet because of her fear level, and then of course she would react with aggression because of her fear.  We’ve both gotten better, but I would feel much more comfortable if my trainer helped Layla learn more about dog signals. 

Thanks for sending your note!

May 18, 2016
4:35 pm
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tallulah4
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I know this is an old post but would love to hear how things went with Layla, I have a similar situation with my dog.

thanks!

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